This Dev Blog should be renamed Eve Online: A Eulogy

You're taking a decade of, while not perfect, functioning mechanics and throwing them away just to change it.

There has been a decade of iteration on the current system. There are countless players who've made websites that take an intimidating structure and break it down into easy to swallow chunks. There are calculators for every aspect of manufacturing, and blogs to explain their mechanics. People were proud to call the game spreadsheets online, and it was a point of pride to show friends what you've made, or a nice surprise when friends gave you yet another tool to help you along. Players also gained a sense of accomplishment knowing that after some study, work, and often some mistakes, that you had conquered the beast that was industry in Eve Online.

Does anyone really think that the average industrialist, new or old, will be better off losing all of these out of game features, that will probably never be updated again to the scale we have now in favor of this new system? Do players really thing they can depend on CCP to create these tools? The only thing that needed to be changed was the UI.

Do we have another decade to spend on players to create sites and guides to muddle their way through CCP's perplexing scaling mechanics? Will anyone take the time to update them? Does CCP even have a handle on their own new mechanics? A lot has changed since it was first proposed, most of it because the people who thought of it, did not think the entire thing out. They showed their massive disconnect with their player base when they thought that people wouldn't take the time to online and offline dozens of modules in a POS just to save some isk. When they were confronted with the realization of how far people will go in this game, they decided to scrap the entire idea all together and pass it off on some lame excuse that it was difficult. They changed batch costs, because they couldn't even articulate with any degree of success on how it worked.

Then for me it was the blueprint ME/PE shaft. I've spent months researching blueprints to obscene levels to gain a very small advantage. Just like people spend a month to train skills that give guns 2% better damage, or reduce the sig radius on their interceptor another little bit. This game is based on diminishing returns, and celebrated those who were devoted enough to spend that much extra time to gain a little advantage. The prints weren't that much better, but when it came time to sell your copies in Jita, mine were the ones that sold because I had taken that extra time to make mine stand out among the crowd. Now, someone who's researched their Drake print for a month, ends up with the same print you've spent 6 months or more to research.

That's only the mechanics, the entire roll out of this patch has been insulting. One team wants to raise the barrier to entry, the other seems fundamentally against it. There is no cohesion it seems at the highest levels. The explanations on changes were confusing at best, spread out, and all discussion was lost in a sea of noise on threads where very little was accomplished. To think that the original plan was to put these changes in over a month ago just shows how little serious thought has gone into this change. Then to try and sneak in a ridiculous skill change that anyone with any kind of grasp on their player base would never have attempted just again shows the amount of thought that these changes have received. And then to tell their players, who have long since grown tired of the meme, that it would be looked into GÇ£soonGÇ¥

This attempt to create Hello Kitty Noob Twitch Space Adventure Super Fun Time Online is not only going to alienate a lot of older players, but raise the barrier of entry to newer players as they will suddenly find themselves devoid of the knowledge that was meticulously crafted by devoted players over the last decade. They are also going to be forced to disperse themselves around the galaxy just to get a decent manufacturing price, and then forced to move on once again when the price gets high. A new player will gravitate to a hub to build if simply for the fact they canGÇÖt afford a freighter. I hate to draw real life analogy, but Ford isnGÇÖt forced to move their plant every month to remain competitive, theyGÇÖre forced to ship their product to where it can be sold, as industry should be.

I can understand attempting to justify one's job with the ever present threat of constant layoffs over your head, but I fear that your attempt to seem busy has doomed us all.

And no, you cannot have my stuff.

so ... you SOBs at ccp decided to whack all of your loyal customers who have been investing years and multiple 'toons in building a portfolio of BPOs with decent ME.

What you've done is give every Johnny come lately who only did ME 10 the equivalent of our ME 100 blueprints, AND you have the F'ing gall to not even compensate us for the time and RL money we've invested -- you just snatched it away.

Further, you've made it near impossible for anyone to ever get the same ME level on any Blueprint with rank exceeding 500 or so [750 days training time to get to ME -10% now means that it's not worth doing. 12,000 days training for a jump freighter? no one is going to pay for that -- ever.]


What -- you been reading from the Putin playbook or something? Decided that power makes right? Or is it that your sales people whined that newbs can't catch up and that's "unfair"?? [that's what corps and alliances are for -- join some older guys and share the wealth.]




I've been in this game for 11 years, paying RL money all the time, and this is how you treat me and people like me.


I'm going to take a month off. During that month, I'll decide if you EVER get another nickle of my money. EVER.



Anyone interested in buying a few high skill point [over 100 million] 'toons is welcome to send me an evemail ingame.

Wait...I thought you goonies needed the high sec refining nerfed and your outposts upped so you could mine and refine all your own ore?

You poor under privileged null bears.

Bring on the swarm of CCP cheerleaders.

Paint it anyway you want, and keep screwin high sec. You'll see CCP, hopefully before it's too late.

Old ME New ME
1 -5%
2 -7%
3, 4 -8%
5, 6, 7, 8, 9 -9%
10 -10%


Old PE New TE
1 -10%
2 -14%
3, 4 -16%
5, 6, 7, 8, 9 -18%
10 -20%


This is your solution, for real? What a joke.


I just trained me 5, thanks for more wasted skill points, it can go with all the other skill you completely gutted.

You have for as long as I have played let people believe that time investments will pay off, but time and time again you have taken things from me that I have "saved" for.

I'm done playing your game of lets arbitrarily move around goalposts for no reason, industry is now dead to me, I will stop recommending eve, period.

Also, Is anyone else noticing this trend of people being upset with changes, and the only people saying that the changes are good are rude goons shitting on everyone else opinions without addressing the points made?

Im going to assume this is CCP position until they respond.

Im going to pull the play out of my "removed the hanger for no reason" playbook,
I just decided to quit eve for a half year and see if they wake up.

-2 accounts

Yeah, wonder who the VIP's are that have had access to the server for the past few days, while the masses are locked out.

LOOT DROPS should replace all industry and mining.

Implement skills and chance to kill pilots and leave hulls intact.

Ship fit skills should be the closest this game gets to industry.





If necessary keep PVE for extra loot drops but

-- integrate it into PVP fleets
-- or as spontaneous attacks (at gates, planets, even rat fleet roams etc )



PS -
If CCP and player want an EVE industry game, why not spin it off to its own attached game like DUST?

Then industry can live or die on its own game merits and not leach off PVP subscriptions.

LOL -- Where is your citation that more than 5% came for industry?

I will give you that more than 5% are actually doing industry in EVE -- But not by choice

As-Is EVE forces larger groups to do industry to get capital ships etc.

ME6712 citadel torpedoes, my ME1975 drones and ME125 battleships

1 unit of Compressed Scordite, Compressed Massive Scordite and Compressed Condensed Scordite now has a volume of 0.19m3
1 unit of Compressed Veldspar, Compressed Concentrated Veldspar and Compressed Dense Veldspar now has a volume of 0.15m3

So, Veldspar(0.10 ->0.15) and Scordite(0.15->0.19) will increase in size by compressing it?

To be fair, I re-read these posts. Unfortunately, up to the last post, you merely said things like this:

"Considering it, not 100% committed to it, still soliciting feedback on what exactly people would find reasonable so we can figure out if there's a good balance to be struck."

And, then on 7-14 (which was only 3 days before this devblog was released), you jumped right to a decision:

"... we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping."

This wasn't a discussion. At no time previous to your final post, did you post any constructive feedback on the suggestions that had been made, nor on the concerns that were raised. If you had, I'm pretty sure that you would have received much more feedback from the affected players.

Note that you were much more interactive and specific on what you were planning, in the posts regarding tweaking rank numbers, and other minutiae, for the upcoming changes. Those were discussions.

In any case, "the work involved in a one-time compensation deal" was never a deal-breaker. You could - and still can - do a simple conversion rather than building an elaborate time reimbursement system. For example, convert BPOs with higher than ME/TE 10 into mulitple BPOs -> ie. if someone has a BPO with ME 50, convert it into 5 BPOs with ME-10%. A fairly simple database operation. Even a partial compensation would go a long ways towards smoothing unsettled waters, ex. a flat 2-for-1 conversion on all BPOs with ME/PE > 10. This also sets a positve precedent ("we're not going to change the game, wiping out months/years of player investment in time/effort, without some sort of token compensation") and admits that even if there is "no functional value lost", CCP recognizes that players did perceive some value - apparent or not - being lost.

And, no, you can't make everyone perfectly happy, but you can do the small things to avoid making a number of your customers unreasonably unhappy.

CCP Greyscale admitted a long while back that he does not play the game.

My little and irrelevant thought, which shall have zero impact nor consideration by anyone.


In my opinion, EvE became a great game because of a certain number of factors.

Since the beginning of the "streamlining", EvE started losing some of its spice.

Ok, changing missiles names and so on was a "flavour thing" but hey, a game is made by a blend of flavours, isn't it?

Then an endless amount of dumbifications, including exploration, inventory, "round pizzas" targets but not only.
Then they removed "superfluous" (yet cool) features like the epic EvE animated log in screens and music, to replace them with a fat nothing. Because it's cheaper!

And now industry, somehow "made simpler" but with math and look up tables 3 times as complicate as it was before...

... and yet once again EvE gets streamlined and violated in its awsome, former gusto.



Hey, I do code refactoring since years as well, but that does not mean scrapping functionality and flavour!


Why, CCP, are you violating the last bastion of evolved gaming? To farm some F2Pers?

Also, what was wrong at letting people invest in research? There are PVPers and missioneers spending years into tweaking their stats to get that 1% more DPS or tank, yet industrialists have to feel good to be streamlined into some forgettable funny-pass time?

Also, I still recall the heavy outcry when CCP changed an handful skills (in example when they split BCs and other ships uniform skills into racial ones). And CCP listened and made the smoothest transition. Yet who invested in research or bought an highly researched BPO is not even worth 5 minutes-of-a-solution?


I am sorry, I find this expansion against EvE original flavour and it's just another push to turn EvE in something tasteless and dumb.


Some in past pages said: "it's a good thing if a MMO loses their loyal elder playerbase".

I have played most MMOs and even some MUDs since before 2000. Not once, not a single MMO that lost its "hard core veterans" went ahead too long before it tanked. Because those are the loyal playerbase, EvE took 10 years to build it and now CCP is beating them down expansion after expansion.


When we had the full game, inclusive of proper, awesome log in screen, awesome expansions like Apochrypha and so on I was honored to pay (no PLEX) 12 subs. Honored to invest and sponsor the one, different game that did not bend down to the lowest common donominator.
Then the $1000 jeans and gold ammo attempt and later, dumbification came.
Now I am down to 1 sub.

Let's see how much you CCP can denaturalize your game before I get rid of that one as well.

I hate change that unfairly favors Goons and other null sec bears.

I also hate change that is stupid.

I hate being slapped in the face and being shown that CCP doesn't care about us folks who have been paying the freight for many years....although I have only been playing for a little over 6 years, I had 10 PAYING accounts for a couple of years, down to 4 and dropping another in a few days.

All due to poorly thought out and implemented garbage like this...."expansion"

Self importance is cool, but I did not really care about an alliance or another. Imo EvE diligently built up its success up to about before Dominion, then it's almost like it lost somebody high in the CCP command chain and got handed by a much, much more traditional game designer(s).

EvE was almost acronym for Emergent versus Everyone (else) and that is what made it different and awesome.
Yes it had bugs and it had idiosynchrasies and tra-la-la. And people grumbled but no way they'd think about quitting the one, true Furnace of Novel Ideas.

Now it's so refactored, so polished, so streamlined... so plastic. Ready for XBox players maybe? Oh wait, we still miss NPCs voice acting before we get down level enough.

the problem with the CSM team is there all nullsec based, so this update will be epic for them, also the other problem with CSM is there is 2 members are in same alliance,

So bottom line, you are saying "Screw you all you Cap manufacturers that used the existing TQ paradigm for years to maximize research time versus rewards, we have completely broken that paradigm, and oh, btw, to achieve anything close to the same wastage you enjoy on Tranquility today , you will have FURTHER research your BPO's for YEARS, given the new hyperbolic time / ME curve".

And if you are hip deep in spreadsheets, mere hours before this travesty goes live, you might have a problem there.
How about doing the sensible thing, like many have pleaded for, and back this thing off until the fall, to allow proper testing on Sisi.

When you factor in the teams that only null sec will bid on

Because what low sec capital manufacturer is going to bid on a team?
What low sec player is going to proclaim to all of Eve "Here we are! We are building capitals in this system! Just look for the POS's with the Thukker Assembly Array." ????

i demand this bomb be put into the next patch this sounds like one of the most fun additions to the game i've heard of in a long time

on the EVE of this long awaited industry revamp I'd just like to thank all the posters that helped make this happen

YES WE CAN!

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i also want to pour one out for the posters who didn't make it all the way. rip weaslior

well it took time but with ccp doing it, they dunno what incremental steps mean and so they took the sledge hammer out when a few more taps with a regular hammer would have done the job. Without going over the f-ing top, congrats on reducing amount of active subscriptions yet again and on making a hash out of the previously working access regulations for assembly lines, and taxation for a assembly line doesnt allow setups were the owner is charged diffrent than the rest. im so happy with having invested into upgrading a station about a year ago.

50% increase in t2 bpo materials=ohh no, you forgot to do the math again and so my monthly demand on the bpo's are actually down by 66% ie moon go is comming down in price from bpo's demand but up because ccp ****** up yet again in forcing more invention into working parts of the market

The chart that they show in this blog post shows 1 ME being 5% and 5,6,7,8 and 9 ME all being 9%. So your 5 ME gets you within 1% of perfect. I think more to the point since most manufacture jobs prior to this expansion only made single digit margins that means your 5% bonus in null sec makes manufacturing anywhere else pretty much a loss or break even at best.

Which makes you...what...The Tammy Faye Baker of our times??

I just had a double hernia operation and don't really need to laugh so I would appreciate you Goons calling honest business folks here scammers to go grab your mirrors and take a hard look at yourselves before shiptoasting.

Feedback thread looks great, about 80% NEGATIVE.

Team spew anyone??

Grade school level BP window?

TRILLIONS in unreimbursed wasted skill training, POS fuel and wasted sub money.

Still trying to find a change that made ANY of this crap worth it for folks heavily invested in Industry....no luck so far.

I think the default search pattern is..
(Same as Date-Created - Newest First).. So those 80 are listed first.
Then you can sort those 80 by clicking.

But yes, many people get this wrong as you can flood enough of the same item on contracts and push those cheaper ones back 2-3 pages. And you can even (if you dont have enough to flood contracts) place your orders in a way that makes HIGHER orders appear before cheaper ones.

CCP has never had good "Sorting" on markets, contract, escrow, assets... Better over the years, but never quite to the good stage.

I used to take advantage of contract manipulation a while back on a char... Was sweet, sell an item for 120 mil and then buy the one that the guy put up for 25 mil on contracts.

Bingo. Your product could be marketed as something with a differentiated value. Now, it is merely a commodity like all the rest. I have been dumping my cap component BPC's as fast as I could for the last few weeks, and I am still stuck with some, with a few more still in the old station slots. But I can't see I will be making more, given the prices are sinking to ridiculous levels, and fast.

in ~99.99% of the cases high researched BPC's were used to actually give the buyer a benefit over the BPC's with the same price, but less researched. (YES, there was a benefit)

Oh cmon... if you're already trolling at least pretend you read what you reply to... you can be better than this, i believe in you!

With Max skills, +4% refining implant, and 50% refine station you get exact same perfect refine on ice. You get about 98% of previous on ore. You have to take into account the new ore batch sizes and the fact they increased the total mins in the ore. So yes, while in the UI it says you are getting 69% (or whatever), it is still possible to get the same amount of mins from the same amount of ore as before (or at least REALLY close).

Go team ccp layoffs. Do you guys actually think things through, or just play with each other. Why do you assume that this release was like OMG indy, and trust me I was like increase of mins f-n awesome. That I failed to read between the lines. POS manufacturing is pretty much in the toilet. If you factor in costs associated with building the ships with the fuel costs of your total profits. Yeah, might as well toss that. I found it easier to research BPO's before crius. WTH more clicking. Industrialists tend to be solo to just a few peeps, not a corporation. So why should I pay through a corp wallet division to build. You guys just over complicated things. And most likely you won't admit it and some peeps will be like, "Over this". CSM nice looking out, you guys are just as a waste as the dev's who push crap updates on us. OMG on the taxes on everything, I have something on this, maybe you got some RMT's who are funneling my iskies to farmers.

CCP Picture this....

U are pinned down to a table and a huge black as montherfucker who has long gone lost his will to live is behind you, raping you so hard in the as that you canGÇÖt breathe. Everything you learned has gone to waste and all your investments are getting drained from your wallet by the next room *****. On top of that the current tax system in your country has decided to put extra tax on your house, all your charts and all your factories. Make note that you already made a huge investment not to use the governmentGÇÖs assembly lines more than absolutely necessary to protect your assets and your investments. This has made your production very unpredictable, harder to do, longer time to do and with a much higher risk of your opponents to steal or destroy your invested chats. The worst part is when you punch the numbers; you know itGÇÖs going to take you the double amount of time to produce from your charts compared to before. As you lying there in agony, all you can think of is how huge and impact this will have on your friends. And when you ask the government why, they simply answer; we only want to benefit the perverts in our society and there is nothing wrong with making the heart of eve paying for it.

Here is a very important message to you CCP and I want you to freeze that on your retina. A productionist does not produce for fun; he/she produces only for profit nothing else. It will never change even if youGÇÖre trying to make things look nicer, witch you failed miserable in fyi.
I am sorry for using questionable language but donGÇÖt expect me to be nice when youGÇÖre steeling from the time to have fun in eve.

I mean, how can anyone ever listen to ONE of your sentences with a minimum of credibility after these gross sweeping statements?

Talks the virgin belonging to the "Goonswarm" holy sisters cloister. The same saints who exploited uncounted billions when CCP released "Forex FW", the same who endorse the classic "500M Goonswarm membership entry fee", the same who gouged and made cartel over the Technetium market for years.

The same who studied every exploit possible to twist and shape EvE grids to PvP advantage and... I just can't list the endless series of filth your alliance has done through the years.

And now they come here preaching'n'teaching on the high moral ground like holy sisters. This is just gross.

Come on, I was there to see the galaxies of tears that happened when CCP actually (mildly) punished for the Forex FW exploit.

EvE search it by yourself, it's not my charge to write down official mementos about the facts happened to (top) members of your own organization.

i can assure you that you or your overresearched bpos were not part of our potential threat analysis

i really cannot understand why in the age of

you only live once
keep it real
uniqueness
i do what i want
one of a kind tattoos
custom paint jobs for all sorts of machines
mine is bigger, better than yours and there it's the only one
single cask beers
one run vinyl albums
etc.

devs want everyone in eve to sit in a circle and circle jerk. sorry to break it to you devs but that is not where society is going. if nullbears are tired of circle jerking each other, have them change hands, swap stained sweaty seat cushions, change places in the circle, try doing it underwater, join the circle jerkers mile high club or stand up and get a conga line going. not everyone wants to be a nullbear bitc# running around having a master telling you what to do, when to do it, where to do it and abusing you on social media even if all their instructions were followed to the letter.

No....we long time industry pilots are here and have read and have commented but to no avail will this patch be reversed or fixed or even mildly discussed any further so I think it is time for me to let this game Die from my household.

Its been a great 6 years and lots of changes but this one has really rubbed me wrong in many ways.

If This is the way of the Future of EVE ... We should have our BPO's "grand fathered " in to what they were before this all happened.
I thought that Once You can FLY Something then You Don't Lose That Ability to do so... It should be the same way with our Blue Prints that we have spent time and Real MONEY ... YES Money because I have spent money to make sure that I can Play EVE as well as for training , (skill books, ships)...
You need to correct this...

The "group of people" is 3 for what I remember and you are not one of them. I could buy YOU a few times over. So quit talking on the shoulders of powerful daddy, you impress no one.

Huh?
when this new "PERFECT" = old -2ME bpc, i'de definetly worry abut this "perfection"

How unsurprising, I come back after some days and I see a flood of posts all from one side.

So, to recap, EvE now consists of:

- Territory control heavily dominated by one.

- Economy partly dominated by one (and I suppose, they are diligently working on fixing the "partly").

- Industry being shifted away to suit and follow.

- Forums just flooded to crush any outsider opinion, any attempt to raise the head.


Speaking on general terms, now EvE consists of two "factions":

- those who took control and dominate with a strong grip.

- the others.


Considering it's now several years that "the others" did not manage to raise any new "champion" they are getting crushed more and more to minimal terms. Past a certain thresold - a thresold possibily already passed, the process becomes irreversible.

Those who could have had a potential to put up a fight and reverse this dominion are well beyond caring, the more they steer EvE away from pleasing a vast, general playerbase (good for continued CCP business) and go towards catering to an elite of +£bermensch the less the general playerbase will care.

That's why many supported TEST, they were a possible contender and the last hope to see a change.


I hope CCP will be very good with their marketing targeting and find some new players who are so clueless to not care they are playing a game that not only is aging and getting more and more rigged, but has been won and is done (*).

I won't even bother to get back and read the 99999999999999999999 spam replies, I know will be made.
Welcome to the Machine, clockwork and ruthless till down the smallest details and proclaims. 1 million against one and strictly playing under Sun Tzu and classic Sirloin's Play To Win (at all costs) bibles.

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(*) Eagerly awaiting for EvE 4 XBox so dumbed down that it'll provide the ideal player base. We are getting there, years of making EvE more and more "streamlined" would produce such fruits.